CKNW on CFMI 101.1 HD2

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CKNW on CFMI 101.1 HD2

Postby radiofan » Tue Oct 20, 2015 5:51 pm

Someone mentioned CKNW now being available on CFMI 101.1 HD2.

I checked the car radio today and it's there. Nice clean FM quality signal and CFMI appears to sound better in HD also.

How long til AM 730 ends up on CFOX HD2? Also, no sign yet of News 1130 on JACK 96.9 HD2.

This rather than a nested repeater eating up another FM frequency seems to be the route to go.
Those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who couldn't hear the music.
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Re: CKNW on CFMI 101.1 HD2

Postby jon » Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:26 pm

I believe that this technique began, for Corus, in the Toronto area. Here is the September 8th post on SOWNY where I first heard of it:
CING-FM, 95.3 is now broadcasting in IBOC HD. HD-1 is 95.3 programming and HD-2 is AM640 Toronto. The HD signal is excellent in Toronto.

Interesting that they don't list it on http://www.cknw.com/listen/

In Toronto, they even have a video you can watch to understand how to tune in to AM 640: http://www.640toronto.com/hd/
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Re: CKNW on CFMI 101.1 HD2

Postby radiofan » Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:49 pm

jon wrote:
Interesting that they don't list it on http://www.cknw.com/listen/



I'm thinking maybe they are still in a test mode, ironing out any wrinkles before they start to promote it on air and online.

I went for a bit of a drive tonight to listen and was totally impressed.
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Re: CKNW on CFMI 101.1 HD2

Postby jon » Tue Oct 20, 2015 9:12 pm

Locally, here in Edmonton, what I would really like to see is W1440 as HD2 on CKRA (Capital FM). Two very different Newcap Oldies stations that could then be clearly heard anywhere in Edmonton.
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Re: CKNW on CFMI 101.1 HD2

Postby Mike Cleaver » Wed Oct 21, 2015 1:17 pm

HD works fine with FM, not AM.
Putting your AM signal on an FM HD channel is great.
But going back to the DAB experience in Canada, you will not succeed unless people are willing to buy new radios that will pick up these channels.
It's great that they come in some new cars as part of the "entertainment package" along with satellite radio, Bluetooth connections for your handheld device, aux jacks, some still with cd players, etc. but to get people to lay out real money for a new radio is a stretch.
During the DAB experience, the only receivers I found were in radio station engineering shops, the DAB demo van and a few little portables in some Radio Shack stores that were so inefficient the ones I tried in the Metrotown store would only pick up a couple of the multiple stations transmitting from the top of the Rogers building a couple of blocks away.
Until receivers are widely available and really promoted, offered as prizes to listeners or deeply discounted at sponsors stores, the results with HD will be the same.
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Re: CKNW on CFMI 101.1 HD2

Postby jon » Wed Oct 21, 2015 3:42 pm

Interesting perspective, Mike.

The relative success of Satellite Radio in Canada proves that "vehicle-only" listening is "enough" to make an audio medium successful. I don't know anyone in Canada with a satellite radio that works anywhere but their vehicle, do you? Admittedly, listening over the Internet is possible, though my only experience with that was one of very poor audio quality (low bit rate).

Hard to compare a pay service with hundreds of commercial-free channels with a free service with a few stations that could not otherwise be heard clearly.

A lot depends on whether HD Radio is, or will ever be, as universal as satellite radio receivers in vehicles.

Finally, of course, is the promotion side of things. Sirius and XM spent tons of money on awareness. We'll see what stations do to make people aware of their HD Radio offerings.
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Re: CKNW on CFMI 101.1 HD2

Postby radiofan » Wed Oct 21, 2015 4:41 pm

Apparently most vehicles sold in the last few years have radios capable of receiving HD signals (you just don't notice it until there is an HD signal available).

For a period today, the CFMI HD signal was off (they are in a three week testing and adjusting period). With that signal off, no HD logo appeared on my radio, and the preset I had for
CFMI HD2 (CKNW) was there, but nothing on the radio when you selected it.

The station logos on the screen are a neat touch.
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Re: CKNW on CFMI 101.1 HD2

Postby Toomas Losin » Wed Oct 21, 2015 8:16 pm

Interesting! I had thought that IBOC was only a problem for adjacent channels on AM. I guess I didn't know better, as checking CFMI today, my RTL-SDR dongle shows digital sidebands that take out the upper half of 100.9 and the lower half of 101.3.

Is this a sign of things to come in Canada? I only occasionally dabble in FM DX but this is the same problem that affects AM DXing. A quick bandscan shows KISM 92.9 using IBOC, with one sideband underneath CKYE 93.1, and the same for KPWZ 106.5 which has one sideband under CKAV 106.3.
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Re: CKNW on CFMI 101.1 HD2

Postby jon » Wed Oct 21, 2015 8:34 pm

When the CRTC recently discussed IBOC on FM, there were some comments made about short spacing of FM stations -- which is done in Canada, but not the U.S. -- and how a conflict would be created if both short-spaced stations were running IBOC.

The "bandwidth" used for IBOC is much greater than SCMO. Especially since the few stations left that still use SCMO only use one SCMO channel.
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Re: CKNW on CFMI 101.1 HD2

Postby PMC » Wed Oct 21, 2015 8:48 pm

Wikipedia has a nice page on the HD topic

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD_Radio

I agree with Mike on the public buying into it, when the same public has been burned on previous formats where their new radio is quickly obsolete. The tech flipping is a cost that small market/revenue starved stations would also reject.

Bet on the net...
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Re: CKNW on CFMI 101.1 HD2

Postby Mike Cleaver » Wed Oct 21, 2015 9:11 pm

There are portable satellite radio receivers.
My high school best friend who now lives in New Mexico had one shortly after satellite radio was introduced in the US.
It was a boom box type unit and worked fine up in Kelowna where we'd all gathered for a high school reunion.
His must have been expensive at the time because the actual receiver part was a module that you could either slip into the boombox or into a receptacle you could add to your "entertainment system" in your vehicle.
The "splatter" effect mentioned by other posters "is" a concern in Metro areas where ALL of the available FM frequencies already are in use.
Canada should have gone ahead with the standard used by other countries around the world.
HD is exclusive to the US and Canada.
Digital radio elsewhere uses other bandwidth, not in the traditional AM and FM bands.
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Re: CKNW on CFMI 101.1 HD2

Postby kal » Sat Oct 24, 2015 8:35 am

Tried for the 'NW HD feed in a colleague's car. Could only see the Rock 101 feed listed on the display.

Surely no coincidence that this testing phase coincides with the launch of Roundhouse 983, which, BTW, has a reasonable signal all the way out to Gaglardi exit along Highway 1.

Is the downtown HD car audience enough to bring some lustre back to CKNW? I'm not so sure. I'm thinking a significant fraction of people with HD-capable car radios are likely to be Sirius customers, having in effect abandoned terrestrial radio.
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Re: CKNW on CFMI 101.1 HD2

Postby jon » Sat Oct 24, 2015 9:19 am

Other possible explanations for the timing of CKNW on a CFMI IBOC channel:
  1. Official roll-out of Corus' AM 640 on IBOC in Toronto (on a Hamilton FM)
  2. CKNW being turned down by the CRTC for a nested FM repeater Downtown
Connected with that recent CRTC decision ("No" to CKNW) was the CRTC's first clear statement on nested FM repeaters for AM stations, during the approval of one for AM 740 in Toronto: it counts as a regular FM station in terms of Common Ownership rules.
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Re: CKNW on CFMI 101.1 HD2

Postby Marty Forbes » Sat Oct 24, 2015 9:22 pm

Jon, Mike SiriusXM now also has an app in iTunes for mobile (iPad, etc) listening. I also have a portable unit hard wired throughout my house. And to be the complete geek I have a tunnel bear VPN so I can listen to Pandora in Canada.
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Re: CKNW on CFMI 101.1 HD2

Postby radiofan » Mon Nov 23, 2015 11:28 am

I noticed CKNW is now promoting the HD signal very heavily today.

I did a quick gas/grocery run to Bellingham this morning and had the HD on the whole way. The signal is crystal clear to about Ferndale and then there was some drop outs as I got closer to Bellingham.

Not sure if these were technical glitches or were caused as I got out of range of Mt Seymour. The CFMI signal on HD1 also dropped in quality as I got to the Guide Meridian area.

Regardless or the drop outs after Ferndale, the NW signal was superior to the challenged AM signal in South Surrey and beyond.

Great work Rob and crew!
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