P3's - wow what a good idea!!

P3's - wow what a good idea!!

Postby Jack Bennest » Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:28 am

P3's have been touted by right wing governments for some time.


The Olympic Village was a P3 - plagued
The Cambie Line was a P3 - plagued
The Port Mann is designed as a P3 - will the plague set in?

Look into the real success of P3's

In the past government of the people borrowed money based on the credit of the entire land and assets of BC and got a contractor to build
another asset. Then we all paid the bill through taxes.

Now the "smart" thinkers who brought you sub prime and "ripped up union contracts" want some off shore money to finance you bridges and buildings.

See what you get - plague - emergency sessions of the legislature - front page stories of plague


WAC "Cec" Bennett - we need you and the Bonner/Gaglardi team

anyone on this board remember 'them there times'???
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Postby jon » Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:01 pm

P3s have a mixed history in Alberta. The Edmonton Ring Road (Anthony Henday, by name) has had P3 portions that worked out, simply because the private contractors had better engineers with better ideas than the Alberta government. Although I do agree that the ridged concrete built by the government engineers is actually a better road surface in the winter. Truth is: both new road surfaces have worked out fine.

On the negative, Canada Place was built here around 1980, and really just cost the federal government a lot more for the same thing. $55 million was a lot of money in those days. Though the City built the Convention Centre for $86 million at about the same time, which is even more outrageous in terms of cost (given construction costs at the time). The waste there, though, was because most of the money went into stabilizing the river bank it was built on.

P3s are really too new here to know how they'll work.
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Re: P3's - wow what a good idea!!

Postby Howaboutthat » Fri Jan 16, 2009 2:50 pm

Top Dog wrote:Now the "smart" thinkers who brought you sub prime and "ripped up union contracts" want some off shore money to finance you bridges and buildings.


Before anyone starts thinking that most statements made by TD are actual fact, I'd like to point out that while Canada has suffered collateral damage from the sub-prime crisis, it was an issue created entirely south of Oliver. The above quoted statement is confusing as it wants you, I'm guessing, to believe that the BC government ("ripped up union contracts") was also responsible for the sub-prime crisis. Not true. Canada is a relatively small country. Its quite natural to go offshore to help finance major projects. No-one could have forecast what has happened to the world's economy in the past year and with the financial collapse, some things are going to take a hit, and guess what... some things in BC are in trouble. What would you suggest.... stop in mid-build and have a referendum that you know won't pass? What you'd be left with would big a white elephant and a huge waste of money already spent. I'm not happy that taxpayers may have to foot the bill, but I'd sure prefer that than a bunch of unfinished residential towers and a transit line that goes nowhere.
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Postby jon » Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:00 pm

Howaboutthat wrote:but I'd sure prefer that than a bunch of unfinished residential towers and a transit line that goes nowhere.

While that is generally true, I've seen some recent cases where it made more sense to just demolish "half finished" structures and sell the land to the highest bidder to do what they want with. Or sell the half finished structures to the highest bidder, etc.

We have a strong tendency is this country to complete ill-conceived projects "no matter what it takes".

For example, it took $200 million just to bring the LRT in Edmonton to the surface at the University of Alberta a couple of years ago. That same money could have been used to split the line downtown and send it across the High Level Bridge and a long way South on existing tracks (with some twinning required).
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Postby Jack Bennest » Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:16 pm

How about - they are factual to me

If you can disprove a statement go for it

The CIBC took a huge hit on sub prime paper it bought - that will cost customers and their reputation

Because of the idiots south of Oliver (must be the uranium water we send to Washington that makes them so stupid and greedy) the whole world is having problems. It will all straighten out - sooner or later and unfortunately the bulk of the people - "watchin Tony" will go back to sleep
while watching reruns of Baywatch Babes.

No where did I say the Campbell soupers, the Fraser Institute, the right wing think tanks and the greedy corporates are linked other than where
they sit - slightly to the far right of Atila the Hun.

P3's are failures - in my humble opinion - I see no evidence that it works
for the public. Public projects should be finances by Canadian Bonds, Canadian Banks and the taxpayers who benefit.

Yes the Campbell government ripped up union contracts and Gordon
Campbell almost lost his west side seat in Vancouver because of it.

Did I say not bail out Vancouver by enabling them to carry the debt?

No I asked who were the idiots that allowed it in the first place.

How about - I see your politics and your lack of research.

AND the thread has provoked some discussion of a very serious situation
that could - if it escalates bring down governments or seriously damage them.
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Postby Howaboutthat » Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:35 pm

Doesn't matter who pays for them my friend. In the end, SOMEONE ends up paying more for the build when the costs go up and up from the time the contracts are first let, or the program is approved. I'm sure you're well aware, especially when it comes to public projects, that governments build some wiggle room into costs, but there's no way ANYONE could have anticipated the skyrocketing costs of late.
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Postby Jack Bennest » Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:20 pm

Many people I commune with have been talking about the crash for over a year - since last January

Of all the contracts that I have supervised in many years of looking at low bid contracts with reputable firms - I cannot remember when something went south. Great employees who know their stuff.

Now of course Oliver is just a fly on the wall and our million dollar contracts for sewer, water, stainless steel fish screens on rivers etc are
just peanuts. (Not to mention our new shiny uranium light up campaign
where citizens shine near the highway to make night driving safe).

Now the big guys - they are really good. Victoria has no sewage treatment. Can you explain that?

End of story on big guys and how brilliant they are. The american bank bailout - where did the money go? Why didn't the feds say - we will back those mortgages and if not paid up - Uncle Sam owns them? Why would the US taxpayers back greedy banks that indulged in unethical and almost criminal behavior?

You call me anything you wish. I like my politics. I like my opinions.
I wish more people would agree with me but some of the brightest people in the world had a lot of trouble getting anyone to listen to them.

I know Al Gore and you are no Al Gore (ice is melting in my glass)

edited in the middle of the night due to insomnia with apologies to bites and sandclapper
Last edited by Jack Bennest on Sat Jan 17, 2009 5:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Russ_Byth » Fri Jan 16, 2009 7:02 pm

Top Dog wrote:I know Al Gore and you are no Al Gore (ice is melting in my glass)


Hah! After the winter we've had so far.... as I mentioned on the radio this week, if anyone mentions Global Warming to me, I'll punch 'em in the nose!
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Postby Steve Sanderson » Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:10 pm

Russ_Byth wrote:
Top Dog wrote:I know Al Gore and you are no Al Gore (ice is melting in my glass)


Hah! After the winter we've had so far.... as I mentioned on the radio this week, if anyone mentions Global Warming to me, I'll punch 'em in the nose!


Ohhh....You mean Gullible Warming?
:D
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Postby OpenMike » Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:59 pm

would a Public Private Partnership have been better than this?:


Olympic's costs may yet haunt Liberals

Keith Baldrey, Special To North Shore News

Published: Friday, January 16, 2009
Once upon a time, a long time ago, the 2010 Olympic Games were supposed to cost a relatively measly sum of $600 million.

That seemed almost like chump change, considering how much big projects cost.

But now, as the Games draw ever nearer, the costs keep piling up. In fact, the final figure could exceed a whopping $3 billion.

How could this be?

Well, for starters, that $600 million covers only the costs of the venues, those arenas and ski hills and such where the Games will actually occur. But as is so clear with these things, the Olympics are much bigger -- and much more expensive -- than simply staging some hockey games and downhill races.

The B.C. government, for example, has created all sorts of spending programs that would not have been created had it not been for the Games. Things like the Olympic Secretariat and Own the Podium cost big money, as do various legacy programs.

In fact, those related programs will cost well more than $100 million. But that's probably the smallest line item on an expanding Olympic budget.

Potentially the biggest cost will be for security. Neither the provincial government nor the federal government wants to provide many details on this front, but there appears to be acknowledgement from governments and the RCMP that security costs will come down somewhere between $400 million and $1 billion (the original estimate from the province was just $175 million).

And B.C.'s auditor general has argued forcefully that another big spending project should be included when Olympic spending is tallied up. He feels the upgrade to the Sea-to-Sky Highway is directly tied to the Olympics, since its construction schedule was fast-tracked to ensure the work was done before the Games started.

That project adds another $775 million to the running total. As well, Crown corporations are contributing $90 million in sponsorship funding -- money that comes off their bottom lines, with a net impact on taxpayers.

Finally, there is the unresolved problem of the massively expensive Olympic Village project in Vancouver. Pegged at $875 million, the project's financing is threatened by the deteriorating economy and a wobbly Wall Street connection.
Geo Custer - "There are not enough Indians in the world to defeat the 7th Cavalry"
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